All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

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All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Chris Mungall-5

I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.

Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:

  • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
  • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
  • more spam seems to have been getting through

Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435

This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!

Here is the list of lists on SF:

A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive

A curated list of GMOD lists:
http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists


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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Todd Harris-3
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
> • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
> • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
> • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Scott Cain
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Scott Cain
OH! I totally forgot about this: gmod.org already has a free google apps account from before they started charging for it.  I suspect that's all we needed to make groups under the gmod.org domain.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Dave Clements-3
In reply to this post by Scott Cain
Hi All,

I recommend strongly against migrating to Google Groups.  We tried Google Groups for the GCC2015 Mailing lists and we had lots of trouble with academic institutions silently blocking emails from google groups. The only workaround we could find was to also subscribe people with a non-work email address.  That was an enormous pain and it wasn't what people wanted.

January-July 2015 is the only time I've used Google Groups extensively, and that experience led me to conclude that I won't try it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommended alternative.  GMOD and Galaxy have been using Nabble for years to archive lists, but I don't have any experience with them hosting email lists.

Does anyone know how hard it is to maintain our own mailman installation on GMOD.org.

In summary: Google Groups: Don't do it.

Dave C

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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--

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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Scott Cain
Thanks for the feedback about Google Groups.  I had some vague uneasiness about using it anyway, but since it was "free" I was willing to at least entertain the idea.  No more entertaining.

While I'm sure I could set up mailman on an AWS instance (and it probably wouldn't even need to be that big), I am worried about such things as security and the need for on going maintenance--I already don't have as much time as I would like to work on GMOD stuff.  If mailman becomes a time sink, that would be a real drag.  I guess I'll have to spend a little time thinking/reading about it.

Thanks,
Scott


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dave Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

I recommend strongly against migrating to Google Groups.  We tried Google Groups for the GCC2015 Mailing lists and we had lots of trouble with academic institutions silently blocking emails from google groups. The only workaround we could find was to also subscribe people with a non-work email address.  That was an enormous pain and it wasn't what people wanted.

January-July 2015 is the only time I've used Google Groups extensively, and that experience led me to conclude that I won't try it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommended alternative.  GMOD and Galaxy have been using Nabble for years to archive lists, but I don't have any experience with them hosting email lists.

Does anyone know how hard it is to maintain our own mailman installation on GMOD.org.

In summary: Google Groups: Don't do it.

Dave C

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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--



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Don Gilbert-4
Dear all,

Bionet still is running at http://www.bio.net/
providing open discussion/news for biology groups, including still some of the model organisms (arabidopis, zebrafish, and add-ons like corn, medicago, annelida, ..).  This is GNU-Mailman mailing list software (same as sourceforge was/is).  It is self-service mostly, I maintain the hardware/software, keep spammers at bay, moderaters manage accounts and moderation :)

While this is now low-key, not many new folks find it in this age of twitter/facebook/googroups, it continues to work and serve mail for those who continue to use it (it still has Usenet cross links but not many still use Usenet, ie. twitter without ads or owners).

Genbank/NCBI folks still use their bionet.genbank to announce data updates.  Bionet was created/funed by Human Genome project way back (1988?) so it has been up and running a while now .. longer than Google, Sourceforge, or even NCBI.

This isn't a push for GMOD to use, but if any among you want to look and try, there is a "new group" form 
http://net.bio.net/biomail/create
and you can look around at other groups traffic. 

About 100 messages / month spread over about 25 still active groups.   Flybase, Wormbase, Yeastbase (sorry mike) opted to run their own a while back but those bionet.dros, bionet.celegans, bionet.yeast lists still exist.

I own the  bio.net domain (handed on from stanford, then in uk), and could work out with Indiana U netowkr folks a gmod.org domain linkage if you need that.

- Don Gilbert


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback about Google Groups.  I had some vague uneasiness about using it anyway, but since it was "free" I was willing to at least entertain the idea.  No more entertaining.

While I'm sure I could set up mailman on an AWS instance (and it probably wouldn't even need to be that big), I am worried about such things as security and the need for on going maintenance--I already don't have as much time as I would like to work on GMOD stuff.  If mailman becomes a time sink, that would be a real drag.  I guess I'll have to spend a little time thinking/reading about it.

Thanks,
Scott


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dave Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

I recommend strongly against migrating to Google Groups.  We tried Google Groups for the GCC2015 Mailing lists and we had lots of trouble with academic institutions silently blocking emails from google groups. The only workaround we could find was to also subscribe people with a non-work email address.  That was an enormous pain and it wasn't what people wanted.

January-July 2015 is the only time I've used Google Groups extensively, and that experience led me to conclude that I won't try it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommended alternative.  GMOD and Galaxy have been using Nabble for years to archive lists, but I don't have any experience with them hosting email lists.

Does anyone know how hard it is to maintain our own mailman installation on GMOD.org.

In summary: Google Groups: Don't do it.

Dave C

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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--



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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--
don gilbert - www.bio.net - bioinformatics - indiana.u.

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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Chris Mungall-5
OK, so it seems the options are

 1. do our own thing on AWS
 2. bionet, Don's suggestion
 3. google groups

I worry about taking too long deciding as SF may start auto-booting people off the different lists soon. I worry particularly about 1 as this will take additional effort and it will be easy for this to fall through the cracks. I'm also not sure how much maintenance is required.

I haven't heard any objection to 2.

There seems to be sufficient voices against 3 to veto it (though personally I have had none of the mentioned issues, and for the OBO lists we're using this because it's the path of least resistance)

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Don Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear all,

Bionet still is running at http://www.bio.net/
providing open discussion/news for biology groups, including still some of the model organisms (arabidopis, zebrafish, and add-ons like corn, medicago, annelida, ..).  This is GNU-Mailman mailing list software (same as sourceforge was/is).  It is self-service mostly, I maintain the hardware/software, keep spammers at bay, moderaters manage accounts and moderation :)

While this is now low-key, not many new folks find it in this age of twitter/facebook/googroups, it continues to work and serve mail for those who continue to use it (it still has Usenet cross links but not many still use Usenet, ie. twitter without ads or owners).

Genbank/NCBI folks still use their bionet.genbank to announce data updates.  Bionet was created/funed by Human Genome project way back (1988?) so it has been up and running a while now .. longer than Google, Sourceforge, or even NCBI.

This isn't a push for GMOD to use, but if any among you want to look and try, there is a "new group" form 
http://net.bio.net/biomail/create
and you can look around at other groups traffic. 

About 100 messages / month spread over about 25 still active groups.   Flybase, Wormbase, Yeastbase (sorry mike) opted to run their own a while back but those bionet.dros, bionet.celegans, bionet.yeast lists still exist.

I own the  bio.net domain (handed on from stanford, then in uk), and could work out with Indiana U netowkr folks a gmod.org domain linkage if you need that.

- Don Gilbert


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback about Google Groups.  I had some vague uneasiness about using it anyway, but since it was "free" I was willing to at least entertain the idea.  No more entertaining.

While I'm sure I could set up mailman on an AWS instance (and it probably wouldn't even need to be that big), I am worried about such things as security and the need for on going maintenance--I already don't have as much time as I would like to work on GMOD stuff.  If mailman becomes a time sink, that would be a real drag.  I guess I'll have to spend a little time thinking/reading about it.

Thanks,
Scott


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dave Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

I recommend strongly against migrating to Google Groups.  We tried Google Groups for the GCC2015 Mailing lists and we had lots of trouble with academic institutions silently blocking emails from google groups. The only workaround we could find was to also subscribe people with a non-work email address.  That was an enormous pain and it wasn't what people wanted.

January-July 2015 is the only time I've used Google Groups extensively, and that experience led me to conclude that I won't try it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommended alternative.  GMOD and Galaxy have been using Nabble for years to archive lists, but I don't have any experience with them hosting email lists.

Does anyone know how hard it is to maintain our own mailman installation on GMOD.org.

In summary: Google Groups: Don't do it.

Dave C

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Todd Harris-3
I'm running several mailing lists via google groups with subscribers in the 1000s. 

While mass migrating that many users is a pain, the benefits have been worth it. 

I have seen very rare occurrences of subscription problems from people using primarily .edu addresses like Dave mentioned. This is usually institutional and remedied by having the user subscribe via a non-institutional address. I don't know many institutes that block mail from Google these days. 

The added benefit is that there is no hardware or software to maintain, no security to tend to, no backups to worry about, easy administrative handovers as necessary, etc. I'm a fan, but I guess I can see why people may be hesitant. 

On Jul 18, 2017, at 8:03 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:

OK, so it seems the options are

 1. do our own thing on AWS
 2. bionet, Don's suggestion
 3. google groups

I worry about taking too long deciding as SF may start auto-booting people off the different lists soon. I worry particularly about 1 as this will take additional effort and it will be easy for this to fall through the cracks. I'm also not sure how much maintenance is required.

I haven't heard any objection to 2.

There seems to be sufficient voices against 3 to veto it (though personally I have had none of the mentioned issues, and for the OBO lists we're using this because it's the path of least resistance)

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Don Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear all,

Bionet still is running at http://www.bio.net/
providing open discussion/news for biology groups, including still some of the model organisms (arabidopis, zebrafish, and add-ons like corn, medicago, annelida, ..).  This is GNU-Mailman mailing list software (same as sourceforge was/is).  It is self-service mostly, I maintain the hardware/software, keep spammers at bay, moderaters manage accounts and moderation :)

While this is now low-key, not many new folks find it in this age of twitter/facebook/googroups, it continues to work and serve mail for those who continue to use it (it still has Usenet cross links but not many still use Usenet, ie. twitter without ads or owners).

Genbank/NCBI folks still use their bionet.genbank to announce data updates.  Bionet was created/funed by Human Genome project way back (1988?) so it has been up and running a while now .. longer than Google, Sourceforge, or even NCBI.

This isn't a push for GMOD to use, but if any among you want to look and try, there is a "new group" form 
http://net.bio.net/biomail/create
and you can look around at other groups traffic. 

About 100 messages / month spread over about 25 still active groups.   Flybase, Wormbase, Yeastbase (sorry mike) opted to run their own a while back but those bionet.dros, bionet.celegans, bionet.yeast lists still exist.

I own the  bio.net domain (handed on from stanford, then in uk), and could work out with Indiana U netowkr folks a gmod.org domain linkage if you need that.

- Don Gilbert


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback about Google Groups.  I had some vague uneasiness about using it anyway, but since it was "free" I was willing to at least entertain the idea.  No more entertaining.

While I'm sure I could set up mailman on an AWS instance (and it probably wouldn't even need to be that big), I am worried about such things as security and the need for on going maintenance--I already don't have as much time as I would like to work on GMOD stuff.  If mailman becomes a time sink, that would be a real drag.  I guess I'll have to spend a little time thinking/reading about it.

Thanks,
Scott


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dave Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

I recommend strongly against migrating to Google Groups.  We tried Google Groups for the GCC2015 Mailing lists and we had lots of trouble with academic institutions silently blocking emails from google groups. The only workaround we could find was to also subscribe people with a non-work email address.  That was an enormous pain and it wasn't what people wanted.

January-July 2015 is the only time I've used Google Groups extensively, and that experience led me to conclude that I won't try it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommended alternative.  GMOD and Galaxy have been using Nabble for years to archive lists, but I don't have any experience with them hosting email lists.

Does anyone know how hard it is to maintain our own mailman installation on GMOD.org.

In summary: Google Groups: Don't do it.

Dave C

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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--



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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don gilbert - www.bio.net - bioinformatics - indiana.u.


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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Don Gilbert-4
In reply to this post by Chris Mungall-5
I looked at sourceforge's changed mail list policy: this seems to have been implemented with no warning to project admins (removing list member addresses from your view) and then on top of that instituting this one-month de-subscribe of list members : a badly planned double effect on any sf projects.

You should complain, loudly (IN CAPS) to those sf managers, at least ask for a delay in their de-subsribing list members, to allow you time to move your mailing lists elsewhere.

As for moving list archives, they do appear to support your downloading all the archived mails, in mbox format, which is what Gnu Mailman software uses for archived messages.

- Don


On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
OK, so it seems the options are

 1. do our own thing on AWS
 2. bionet, Don's suggestion
 3. google groups

I worry about taking too long deciding as SF may start auto-booting people off the different lists soon. I worry particularly about 1 as this will take additional effort and it will be easy for this to fall through the cracks. I'm also not sure how much maintenance is required.

I haven't heard any objection to 2.

There seems to be sufficient voices against 3 to veto it (though personally I have had none of the mentioned issues, and for the OBO lists we're using this because it's the path of least resistance)

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Don Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear all,

Bionet still is running at http://www.bio.net/
providing open discussion/news for biology groups, including still some of the model organisms (arabidopis, zebrafish, and add-ons like corn, medicago, annelida, ..).  This is GNU-Mailman mailing list software (same as sourceforge was/is).  It is self-service mostly, I maintain the hardware/software, keep spammers at bay, moderaters manage accounts and moderation :)

While this is now low-key, not many new folks find it in this age of twitter/facebook/googroups, it continues to work and serve mail for those who continue to use it (it still has Usenet cross links but not many still use Usenet, ie. twitter without ads or owners).

Genbank/NCBI folks still use their bionet.genbank to announce data updates.  Bionet was created/funed by Human Genome project way back (1988?) so it has been up and running a while now .. longer than Google, Sourceforge, or even NCBI.

This isn't a push for GMOD to use, but if any among you want to look and try, there is a "new group" form 
http://net.bio.net/biomail/create
and you can look around at other groups traffic. 

About 100 messages / month spread over about 25 still active groups.   Flybase, Wormbase, Yeastbase (sorry mike) opted to run their own a while back but those bionet.dros, bionet.celegans, bionet.yeast lists still exist.

I own the  bio.net domain (handed on from stanford, then in uk), and could work out with Indiana U netowkr folks a gmod.org domain linkage if you need that.

- Don Gilbert


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback about Google Groups.  I had some vague uneasiness about using it anyway, but since it was "free" I was willing to at least entertain the idea.  No more entertaining.

While I'm sure I could set up mailman on an AWS instance (and it probably wouldn't even need to be that big), I am worried about such things as security and the need for on going maintenance--I already don't have as much time as I would like to work on GMOD stuff.  If mailman becomes a time sink, that would be a real drag.  I guess I'll have to spend a little time thinking/reading about it.

Thanks,
Scott


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dave Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

I recommend strongly against migrating to Google Groups.  We tried Google Groups for the GCC2015 Mailing lists and we had lots of trouble with academic institutions silently blocking emails from google groups. The only workaround we could find was to also subscribe people with a non-work email address.  That was an enormous pain and it wasn't what people wanted.

January-July 2015 is the only time I've used Google Groups extensively, and that experience led me to conclude that I won't try it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommended alternative.  GMOD and Galaxy have been using Nabble for years to archive lists, but I don't have any experience with them hosting email lists.

Does anyone know how hard it is to maintain our own mailman installation on GMOD.org.

In summary: Google Groups: Don't do it.

Dave C

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> Gmod-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gmod-devel


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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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--



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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Re: All GMOD mail lists should be migrated from sourceforge

Don Gilbert-4
PS, if you can get the e-mail lists of subscribers from sourceforge admins, along with mail archives, these lists can be reconstituited in any Gnu Mailman setup (e.g. as bionet has, or as you/others can run).  It is my guess they were forced to hide the subscriber lists by some mis-use and then complaints from a subset of projects .. ask and you may be able to get the subscriber lists for GMOD groups.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Don Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
I looked at sourceforge's changed mail list policy: this seems to have been implemented with no warning to project admins (removing list member addresses from your view) and then on top of that instituting this one-month de-subscribe of list members : a badly planned double effect on any sf projects.

You should complain, loudly (IN CAPS) to those sf managers, at least ask for a delay in their de-subsribing list members, to allow you time to move your mailing lists elsewhere.

As for moving list archives, they do appear to support your downloading all the archived mails, in mbox format, which is what Gnu Mailman software uses for archived messages.

- Don


On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
OK, so it seems the options are

 1. do our own thing on AWS
 2. bionet, Don's suggestion
 3. google groups

I worry about taking too long deciding as SF may start auto-booting people off the different lists soon. I worry particularly about 1 as this will take additional effort and it will be easy for this to fall through the cracks. I'm also not sure how much maintenance is required.

I haven't heard any objection to 2.

There seems to be sufficient voices against 3 to veto it (though personally I have had none of the mentioned issues, and for the OBO lists we're using this because it's the path of least resistance)

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Don Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear all,

Bionet still is running at http://www.bio.net/
providing open discussion/news for biology groups, including still some of the model organisms (arabidopis, zebrafish, and add-ons like corn, medicago, annelida, ..).  This is GNU-Mailman mailing list software (same as sourceforge was/is).  It is self-service mostly, I maintain the hardware/software, keep spammers at bay, moderaters manage accounts and moderation :)

While this is now low-key, not many new folks find it in this age of twitter/facebook/googroups, it continues to work and serve mail for those who continue to use it (it still has Usenet cross links but not many still use Usenet, ie. twitter without ads or owners).

Genbank/NCBI folks still use their bionet.genbank to announce data updates.  Bionet was created/funed by Human Genome project way back (1988?) so it has been up and running a while now .. longer than Google, Sourceforge, or even NCBI.

This isn't a push for GMOD to use, but if any among you want to look and try, there is a "new group" form 
http://net.bio.net/biomail/create
and you can look around at other groups traffic. 

About 100 messages / month spread over about 25 still active groups.   Flybase, Wormbase, Yeastbase (sorry mike) opted to run their own a while back but those bionet.dros, bionet.celegans, bionet.yeast lists still exist.

I own the  bio.net domain (handed on from stanford, then in uk), and could work out with Indiana U netowkr folks a gmod.org domain linkage if you need that.

- Don Gilbert


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback about Google Groups.  I had some vague uneasiness about using it anyway, but since it was "free" I was willing to at least entertain the idea.  No more entertaining.

While I'm sure I could set up mailman on an AWS instance (and it probably wouldn't even need to be that big), I am worried about such things as security and the need for on going maintenance--I already don't have as much time as I would like to work on GMOD stuff.  If mailman becomes a time sink, that would be a real drag.  I guess I'll have to spend a little time thinking/reading about it.

Thanks,
Scott


On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dave Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All,

I recommend strongly against migrating to Google Groups.  We tried Google Groups for the GCC2015 Mailing lists and we had lots of trouble with academic institutions silently blocking emails from google groups. The only workaround we could find was to also subscribe people with a non-work email address.  That was an enormous pain and it wasn't what people wanted.

January-July 2015 is the only time I've used Google Groups extensively, and that experience led me to conclude that I won't try it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recommended alternative.  GMOD and Galaxy have been using Nabble for years to archive lists, but I don't have any experience with them hosting email lists.

Does anyone know how hard it is to maintain our own mailman installation on GMOD.org.

In summary: Google Groups: Don't do it.

Dave C

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Scott Cain <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I hadn't even thought about the idea of going the G suite for education route.  I'll make a few queries about it, since I would really rather have the "gmod.org" branding on whatever we migrate to.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Todd Harris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed. I saw then ignored that email from SF.

Google Groups can be a little finicky sometimes but generally works well for most users.

If we want to corral lists under the gmod.org domain, someone would need to petition Google for a G Suite for Education account.  That might be more overhead than is necessary to just get some core lists up and running before the end of the month.

Todd

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Chris Mungall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think it's time to ditch sourceforge altogether.
>
> Of course, we ditched them some time ago as a hosted VCS and ticket system, moving to github, but we left the mail lists in place. Now it's time to move these too:
>
>       • Recently I got an email from sourceforge asking me to confirm I wanted to remain on all sf mailing lists (non-confirmation resulting in automatic unsubscription within the month). It looked a bit phishy and I suspect many people will either not click or will not see the email, and will silently drop off the lists.
>       • it is now no longer possible for list admins to manage members!
>       • more spam seems to have been getting through
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion, it seems like migrating to google groups is the best solution. This is what we're doing with the OBO lists: https://github.com/OBOFoundry/OBOFoundry.github.io/issues/435
>
> This may be a good time to do some spring cleaning, consolidate some groups, formally abandon some others. And perhaps we can breathe some life into some existing ones? gmod-architecture seems to get no love - yet this is at a time when the model organism databases are consolidating their architecture and community discussions would be most welcome!
>
> Here is the list of lists on SF:
>
> <PastedImage.png>
>
> A lot of these are either dead or were never really alive
>
> A curated list of GMOD lists:
> http://gmod.org/wiki/GMOD_Mailing_Lists
>
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Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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Scott Cain, Ph. D.                                   scott at scottcain dot net
GMOD Coordinator (http://gmod.org/)                     <a href="tel:(216)%20392-3087" value="+12163923087" target="_blank">216-392-3087
Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

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